<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:itunes="http://www.itunes.com/dtds/podcast-1.0.dtd"
	xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Declare your independence from the curmudgeon tribe</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/</link>
	<description>Ryan Sholin on the future of newspapers, online news and journalism education.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:49:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Curmudgeons threaten innovation and innovators &#124; Jared Silfies</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11154</link>
		<dc:creator>Curmudgeons threaten innovation and innovators &#124; Jared Silfies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11154</guid>
		<description>[...] blogs lately addressing the crusty old thinkers in the media. Ryan Sholin urged the new thinkers to declare independence from the tribe, while Pat Thornton argued that curmudgeons can&#8217;t save journalism &#8212; innovation [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] blogs lately addressing the crusty old thinkers in the media. Ryan Sholin urged the new thinkers to declare independence from the tribe, while Pat Thornton argued that curmudgeons can&#8217;t save journalism &#8212; innovation [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Meranda Writes &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Working for a newspaper is not a death sentence</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11093</link>
		<dc:creator>Meranda Writes &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Working for a newspaper is not a death sentence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 01:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11093</guid>
		<description>[...] He&#8217;s talking about Jessica DaSilva. For those who don&#8217;t obsessively read journalism blogs or follow journalists on Twitter, here&#8217;s the short version: Jessica wrote a blog post about her experience being in the room when the editor at the paper where she is interning announced layoffs. That post drew a lot of scorn (most of it undeserved) from old-school journalists. Ryan Sholin called it, &#8220;The last stand of the curmudgeon class.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] He&#8217;s talking about Jessica DaSilva. For those who don&#8217;t obsessively read journalism blogs or follow journalists on Twitter, here&#8217;s the short version: Jessica wrote a blog post about her experience being in the room when the editor at the paper where she is interning announced layoffs. That post drew a lot of scorn (most of it undeserved) from old-school journalists. Ryan Sholin called it, &#8220;The last stand of the curmudgeon class.&#8221; [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: People fear what they don&#8217;t understand &#171; Online Journalism Student</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11090</link>
		<dc:creator>People fear what they don&#8217;t understand &#171; Online Journalism Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11090</guid>
		<description>[...] Some of the people that &#8220;get it&#8221; advocate trying to show the benefits of change to the graying audience and the curmudgeon news tribe. Others have decided enough is enough &#8212; it&#8217;s time to declare our independence. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Some of the people that &#8220;get it&#8221; advocate trying to show the benefits of change to the graying audience and the curmudgeon news tribe. Others have decided enough is enough &#8212; it&#8217;s time to declare our independence. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: &#187; We can. We will. We must. &#124; The Journalism Iconoclast</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11086</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; We can. We will. We must. &#124; The Journalism Iconoclast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 06:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11086</guid>
		<description>[...] It&#8217;s easier to believe that there is no solution, rather than come up with one. That&#8217;s an idea that is killing journalism. It&#8217;s an idea that sustains the curmudgeon tribe of journalists. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It&#8217;s easier to believe that there is no solution, rather than come up with one. That&#8217;s an idea that is killing journalism. It&#8217;s an idea that sustains the curmudgeon tribe of journalists. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Zhu</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11073</link>
		<dc:creator>John Zhu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 02:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11073</guid>
		<description>@Ryan: 
&quot;Friends of mine were layed off [ha] in Santa Cruz, and the part about it that pissed me off the most was that they were chosen, supposedly, because they were young and could find other jobs.

Even though they were trying to do more online; even though they had skills that no one else in the building had.&quot;

And I&#039;m sure the people in the ad department were thinking: They need to cut in the newsroom before they cut in advertising. After all, we&#039;re the ones sellings ads to keep the paper afloat. The people in production are thinking: They can&#039;t cut us because we actually make sure the paper gets printed correctly. The delivery guys are thinking: Without us, nobody gets their papers ... 

The point is, everybody can come up with a litany of reasons why one group should stay while another should be laid off. Such things are matters of perspective. And whether a layoff plan has any hint of logic is completely subjective.

To your point about your personal relationships in the newsroom not having any bearing when it comes to doing your job, I beg to differ. Workplace relationships have everything to do with getting the job done -- it&#039;s true in newspapers just as in any other profession. If you present me with a plan that I&#039;m skeptical about, and you&#039;ve always come off as an uncaring a-hole, especially one who seemingly had no sympathy for my recently laid-off colleagues, I have little reason to give your plan a second thought. If you come off something better, people might think twice; even though they may be hesitant about what you&#039;re proposing, they would still be more likely to give it a shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ryan:<br />
&#8220;Friends of mine were layed off [ha] in Santa Cruz, and the part about it that pissed me off the most was that they were chosen, supposedly, because they were young and could find other jobs.</p>
<p>Even though they were trying to do more online; even though they had skills that no one else in the building had.&#8221;</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m sure the people in the ad department were thinking: They need to cut in the newsroom before they cut in advertising. After all, we&#8217;re the ones sellings ads to keep the paper afloat. The people in production are thinking: They can&#8217;t cut us because we actually make sure the paper gets printed correctly. The delivery guys are thinking: Without us, nobody gets their papers &#8230; </p>
<p>The point is, everybody can come up with a litany of reasons why one group should stay while another should be laid off. Such things are matters of perspective. And whether a layoff plan has any hint of logic is completely subjective.</p>
<p>To your point about your personal relationships in the newsroom not having any bearing when it comes to doing your job, I beg to differ. Workplace relationships have everything to do with getting the job done &#8212; it&#8217;s true in newspapers just as in any other profession. If you present me with a plan that I&#8217;m skeptical about, and you&#8217;ve always come off as an uncaring a-hole, especially one who seemingly had no sympathy for my recently laid-off colleagues, I have little reason to give your plan a second thought. If you come off something better, people might think twice; even though they may be hesitant about what you&#8217;re proposing, they would still be more likely to give it a shot.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Zhu</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11072</link>
		<dc:creator>John Zhu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 01:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11072</guid>
		<description>@Howard: So I think creatively, I figure things out on my own, and I take the initiative to learn new things. But I reach a different conclusion about the best way to do things than you do, and for this, I would be labeled a curmudgeon? That seems to be what I&#039;m seeing here. My point is that many veterans are not averse to the concept of the need to change, just to particular sets of changes being pushed, and for this they get unfairly labeled as &quot;change-averse&quot;. 

As for the &quot;working hard isn&#039;t enough, you have to get it&quot; argument, I&#039;ll extend the &quot;team&quot; metaphor that you&#039;ve used. A basketball coach decides the best thing for his team would be for one of his stars to be more of a rebounder than a scorer. The guy isn&#039;t happy about it, but he does it anyway, plays his butt off, and cleans up on the boards. He isn&#039;t happy about his role but he still plays it well. Yet, despite the player putting forth effort in his role, the scheme doesn&#039;t work, and the finger gets pointed at the player, blaming him for the scheme&#039;s failure because he wasn&#039;t happy about his role (although he took it on and played hard nonetheless). As I said, many journalists may be skeptical about particular plans, but when push comes to shove, they all do what they&#039;ve been asked, and most of them approach it with the same effort they&#039;ve always given. If a plan is sound, then you just need people to fill their individual roles for the plan to achieve its goal. If the plan fails, perhaps it&#039;s the plan itself, not the people who carried it out as they were asked to do, that should be re-examined.

Oh, and BTW, what part of being a team player involves alienating your teammates by slapping them with stereotypical labels without trying to reach out and understand their perspective? Perhaps veterans would not seem so defensive if the message wasn&#039;t delivered with such abrasiveness. You can talk about how the industry is dying and thus this isn&#039;t the time to worry about people&#039;s feelings, but in a real office environment, people&#039;s feelings are extremely important if you actually want to gain cooperation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Howard: So I think creatively, I figure things out on my own, and I take the initiative to learn new things. But I reach a different conclusion about the best way to do things than you do, and for this, I would be labeled a curmudgeon? That seems to be what I&#8217;m seeing here. My point is that many veterans are not averse to the concept of the need to change, just to particular sets of changes being pushed, and for this they get unfairly labeled as &#8220;change-averse&#8221;. </p>
<p>As for the &#8220;working hard isn&#8217;t enough, you have to get it&#8221; argument, I&#8217;ll extend the &#8220;team&#8221; metaphor that you&#8217;ve used. A basketball coach decides the best thing for his team would be for one of his stars to be more of a rebounder than a scorer. The guy isn&#8217;t happy about it, but he does it anyway, plays his butt off, and cleans up on the boards. He isn&#8217;t happy about his role but he still plays it well. Yet, despite the player putting forth effort in his role, the scheme doesn&#8217;t work, and the finger gets pointed at the player, blaming him for the scheme&#8217;s failure because he wasn&#8217;t happy about his role (although he took it on and played hard nonetheless). As I said, many journalists may be skeptical about particular plans, but when push comes to shove, they all do what they&#8217;ve been asked, and most of them approach it with the same effort they&#8217;ve always given. If a plan is sound, then you just need people to fill their individual roles for the plan to achieve its goal. If the plan fails, perhaps it&#8217;s the plan itself, not the people who carried it out as they were asked to do, that should be re-examined.</p>
<p>Oh, and BTW, what part of being a team player involves alienating your teammates by slapping them with stereotypical labels without trying to reach out and understand their perspective? Perhaps veterans would not seem so defensive if the message wasn&#8217;t delivered with such abrasiveness. You can talk about how the industry is dying and thus this isn&#8217;t the time to worry about people&#8217;s feelings, but in a real office environment, people&#8217;s feelings are extremely important if you actually want to gain cooperation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11071</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 01:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11071</guid>
		<description>Obviously a good conversation going on here.  

John is right that Jessica didn&#039;t think about hurting anyone&#039;s feelings.  No one taught me that was part of my job description as a journalist.  Did I miss a day of class somewhere?  

I&#039;m compassionate and diplomatic and understanding by nature, and that&#039;s part of why I&#039;m good at getting people to talk to me, but when it&#039;s time to get things done, my personal relationships with the people in the newsroom shouldn&#039;t be a factor.

Friends of mine were layed off [ha] in Santa Cruz, and the part about it that pissed me off the most was that they were chosen, supposedly, because they were young and could find other jobs.

Even though they were trying to do more online; even though they had skills that no one else in the building had.

The higher-ups chose to keep on a set of older reporters and editors that I was sure would be let go.  They were closer to retirement, to pensions, to social security, and so they needed the job more.

A compassionate choice, but not one with any sort of goal (say, measurable success) in mind.

So forgive me if I&#039;m a bit harsh myself when it comes to layoffs.  

Major metros have had bloated staff for years based on outdated assumptions about what readers need, want, or expect from their local paper.

If your paper hasn&#039;t made adjustments yet, they will.

The only question -- and the one you should be asking your editors and publisher before the blood-letting begins, is whether they have a plan.

Any plan will do, frankly.  Anything with a hint of logic, leadership and direction is better than sad-sack hand-wringing shoe-gazing.

That&#039;s just a waste of time. Mine and yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously a good conversation going on here.  </p>
<p>John is right that Jessica didn&#8217;t think about hurting anyone&#8217;s feelings.  No one taught me that was part of my job description as a journalist.  Did I miss a day of class somewhere?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m compassionate and diplomatic and understanding by nature, and that&#8217;s part of why I&#8217;m good at getting people to talk to me, but when it&#8217;s time to get things done, my personal relationships with the people in the newsroom shouldn&#8217;t be a factor.</p>
<p>Friends of mine were layed off [ha] in Santa Cruz, and the part about it that pissed me off the most was that they were chosen, supposedly, because they were young and could find other jobs.</p>
<p>Even though they were trying to do more online; even though they had skills that no one else in the building had.</p>
<p>The higher-ups chose to keep on a set of older reporters and editors that I was sure would be let go.  They were closer to retirement, to pensions, to social security, and so they needed the job more.</p>
<p>A compassionate choice, but not one with any sort of goal (say, measurable success) in mind.</p>
<p>So forgive me if I&#8217;m a bit harsh myself when it comes to layoffs.  </p>
<p>Major metros have had bloated staff for years based on outdated assumptions about what readers need, want, or expect from their local paper.</p>
<p>If your paper hasn&#8217;t made adjustments yet, they will.</p>
<p>The only question &#8212; and the one you should be asking your editors and publisher before the blood-letting begins, is whether they have a plan.</p>
<p>Any plan will do, frankly.  Anything with a hint of logic, leadership and direction is better than sad-sack hand-wringing shoe-gazing.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s just a waste of time. Mine and yours.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michele McLellan</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11070</link>
		<dc:creator>Michele McLellan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 00:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11070</guid>
		<description>I agree with Howard. Emphatically. Hard work doesn&#039;t matter if you are not doing the most effective, most important things for the reader/user. The culture of traditional newsrooms is strongly perfectionistic. This means that people spend a lot of time persuing very narrow objectives at the expense of the big picture. This is why the occasional typo in the sports agate for years got so much more attention in newsrooms than what was happening on the Web. 
And this defensive, risk (and adventure)-averse culture is insidious. A couple of years ago, Tim Porter and I (&quot;News, Improved&quot; wrote: &quot;Ever see a reporter only a couple of years out of journalism school speak with the same jaded weariness and pessimism as the grizzled, 30-year, seen-it-all cityside reporter? When you do, you know the newcomer has been drinking a potent newsroom Kool-Aid, a daily high octane shot of defensive culture.&quot;
I see indications that in some newsrooms (Spokane, Corpus Christi come to mind), the young folks are refusing the Kool-Aid and their bosses are cheering them on. That&#039;s leadership that is determined to innovate from the ground up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Howard. Emphatically. Hard work doesn&#8217;t matter if you are not doing the most effective, most important things for the reader/user. The culture of traditional newsrooms is strongly perfectionistic. This means that people spend a lot of time persuing very narrow objectives at the expense of the big picture. This is why the occasional typo in the sports agate for years got so much more attention in newsrooms than what was happening on the Web.<br />
And this defensive, risk (and adventure)-averse culture is insidious. A couple of years ago, Tim Porter and I (&#8220;News, Improved&#8221; wrote: &#8220;Ever see a reporter only a couple of years out of journalism school speak with the same jaded weariness and pessimism as the grizzled, 30-year, seen-it-all cityside reporter? When you do, you know the newcomer has been drinking a potent newsroom Kool-Aid, a daily high octane shot of defensive culture.&#8221;<br />
I see indications that in some newsrooms (Spokane, Corpus Christi come to mind), the young folks are refusing the Kool-Aid and their bosses are cheering them on. That&#8217;s leadership that is determined to innovate from the ground up.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Howard Owens</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11069</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard Owens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11069</guid>
		<description>@John:  Actually, the curmudgeon class foils innovation in newsrooms everyday.

It isn&#039;t about just working hard, as you say later; it&#039;s about getting it.

And getting it involves thinking creatively, figuring things out on your own, learning new things on your own ... all of which is hard to do without a positive attitude.

If it were all about hard work, then circulation wouldn&#039;t be declining, revenue wouldn&#039;t be falling, and readers wouldn&#039;t be telling us in droves that we&#039;re not meeting their needs (I have survey data, if  you would like to see it).

There are thousands of hard working journalists in this country (and some lazy ones, too).  This isn&#039;t about hard work.  It is, as Steve, says, about being a team player.  When you&#039;re on a team, you play to win. It isn&#039;t even a matter of not complaining or not whining, because if you&#039;re approaching this with the right mindset, the complaints and whines never even cross your mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John:  Actually, the curmudgeon class foils innovation in newsrooms everyday.</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t about just working hard, as you say later; it&#8217;s about getting it.</p>
<p>And getting it involves thinking creatively, figuring things out on your own, learning new things on your own &#8230; all of which is hard to do without a positive attitude.</p>
<p>If it were all about hard work, then circulation wouldn&#8217;t be declining, revenue wouldn&#8217;t be falling, and readers wouldn&#8217;t be telling us in droves that we&#8217;re not meeting their needs (I have survey data, if  you would like to see it).</p>
<p>There are thousands of hard working journalists in this country (and some lazy ones, too).  This isn&#8217;t about hard work.  It is, as Steve, says, about being a team player.  When you&#8217;re on a team, you play to win. It isn&#8217;t even a matter of not complaining or not whining, because if you&#8217;re approaching this with the right mindset, the complaints and whines never even cross your mind.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: No curmudgeons &#124; Howard Owens</title>
		<link>http://ryansholin.com/2008/07/04/declare-your-independence-from-the-curmudgeon-tribe/comment-page-1/#comment-11068</link>
		<dc:creator>No curmudgeons &#124; Howard Owens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ryansholin.com/?p=868#comment-11068</guid>
		<description>[...] with Yelvington and Sholin on this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with Yelvington and Sholin on this [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
